So here's a topic of debate. But, here's a preface to the question. Currently, our church here in St. Louis has been growing at an average rate of 5% per year over the last 10 years, which is great. (I do know it's not about the numbers of your church, but hear me out.) This past Sunday, our pastor cast a vision to the chrurch about how our church should be a "Simple Church" by Connecting (through Worship), Growing (through the study of God's word in small groups), and Serving (kinda self-expalantory). And it would be sort of a cycle: Connecting, Growing, Serving, Connecting, Growing.... So, the staff believes this is how we will grow as a church, in relationships and numbers. We don't have to have all kinds of commitees, activities, and events to connect to people to grow a church. Obviously, St. Louis is a large city and we want to look to bring in the lost people to the church, and not just look to grow the church by stealing members from other churches.
I've always looked at a Pastor and his Church as a shepherd and his sheep. John 10:3 says "3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." I know this verse is commonly translated to mean the shepherd is the Lord and he knows us all individually by name. But, could this also mean that a Pastor should know each one of his sheep by name? So, is a church too big if he doesn't know the people of his congregation?
Here is an interesting reply from Andy Stanley to a blog-conversation that took place a couple of years ago. Adam W. Cleaveland, the author of the blog, stated that he couldn't possibly attend a megachurch like North Point since there wasn't any real community experience. Eventually, Andy himself replied.
"I’m writing to aplogize for the size of North Point Community Church. When six of us gathered to think through the idea of beginning a church we had no idea that it would become so large. For this growth I am truely sorry. I realize that the size is intimidating.
I have read the comments on this site and have decided to make some changes. To begin with I am going to spend time with each and every parisioner so that they can get to know me personally. Like many of you, I wouldn’t want to attend a church where I could not connect personally with the pastor. I’ve shared this with my wife and three kids. They are in complete agreement. So beginning next Sunday I will be at the back door to shake hands.
Secondly, I am going to suggest to our elders that we sell our three campuses, consolidate, and move the church into a much smaller building. Smaller space will mean smaller crowds. And aparently large crowds are unbiblical. I agree, the church should be no larger than 40 to 50 people. Most of whom are believers.
Regarding my shallow, simplistic preaching…for this I am truley sorry. I am doing the best I can. I know deeper is better. I’m just not deep. I’m not really sure what to do about that.
These changes will take some time. Please be patient. If you have any helpful suggestions as to how I can transition North Point Community Church into a church made up of a handful of believers who enjoy deep preaching please let me know.
On a positive note, the 8,000 adults who meet in groups of 8 to 12 in homes throughout our community can continue to meet in spite of the fact that they will no longer be able to worship together.
Thank you for your valuable insights. And please accept my apology."
Andy Stanley
Pastor, North Point Community Church
So, with a good bit of sarcasm, i think we know what he believes. I guess the size of the church isn't as important if there's connection in a type of small group. I guess that small group is usually Sunday School classes.
I do enjoy reading everyone's blogs. I think it helps us all in the study of the Word.
8 comments:
I think I may tend to agree with what he actually said (even though he didn't say it at all), but I think the we he went about it is terrible. Sarcasm like that on such a serious matter that will be read by many is encouraging to no one. By the nature of sarcasm like that, it seems as though he is trying to make much of himself. I think the key to any healthy Christian disagreement or debate is humility. No one knows it all, and usually, the people who do know a lot are the first to admit they know nothing. Are we trying to make people laugh, or trying to humbly edify and rebuke others to bring the God the most glory?
In most churches of more than 200 adults, the pastor has a very limited ability to develop meaningful relationships with the people to whom he communicates each Sunday. The fact is, to teach people the Bible, you need to understand the Bible, and the universal human condition.
I listen to Chris Tomlin, David Crowder, Steve Fee, and Todd Fields a lot. They lead me in worship, but they don't have to know me... they just have to know the eternal truths of God and the universal human condition, and they can teach and lead me!
Let's get past the "country church" mentality that says if the church has more than 50 people it's not a "real" church. The early church had very few elders or apostles and they were growing by the thousands! Did all those people know Peter or James or Stephen personally?
Signs of health in a church are clear and easy to evaluate. Are people pursuing a genuine relationship with Christ and all the submission that goes with that? Are they developing authentic community with other believers? Are they influencing the community around them in such a way that others are being drawn to know God as well?
Whether these things are happening matters much more than the size of the church.
When people come into your church, they must get a feeling of connection through service. If they don't get connected into a ministry of the church, i think they're less likely to grow. A visitor becomes more and more unnoticeable the larger a church gets, right? Churches need to have a mindset of reaching the lost, not only discipling those that already go there. Once someone gets saved, they should be nurtured much like a baby is nurtured when it's born. Do larger churches have programs like this for new believers? (i've never been a part of a megachurch, so i don't really know)
I agree with Joel that his sarcasm would be the first thing to turn me away from his churh, not the size. Anyways, the biggest church I ever went to was FBC and i felt community there through my sunday school but also because I participated. I mean worship and growth is not the sole responsibility of the preacher. If you come to serve and take part in corporate worship then that is what you will get. The more you serve, the more you feel like part of a community, a family. I dont know of a better example than that of the class that Adam and I are currently in. There were 19 newlywed couples in it and we realized that we were stagnant. So we split into 3 groups that now average 15 people per group. That is how a church should handle growth. Take your small groups and grow them. When and if they get to big, then people should be willing to split (a nasty word in the church). Our new small group has doubled in size since the first meeting and the new people said that they didn't want to enter such a big group before. To sum up, I dont think that splitting up a church or downsizing is a good idea, but keeping community groups at an approachable size is key. Also, the members of a church can't blame growth on any pastor....if they want to grow than they need to meet with God more often and in a more intimate setting...a preacher will never lead you into a better relationshp with God if you haven't decided to personally grow. P.S.- on a lighter note, Brother Cox (my pastor of 10 years) still calls me Lindsay to this day...yet,under his teaching I realized my need for a Savior, became a Christian and grew tremondously.
You can't go to church, some people say. It's a common termanology we use every day. You can go to a building, that is something you can do. But you can't go to church because the church is you.
-Acapella
WORD
I may have been misleading with my comment. I do think that churches can be a too big, but I don't think there's a set number. The church I attend has around 500 members, but about 800 will be there on an average Sunday. This is by far the largest church I've ever attended, and by far the most I have felt the strong fellowship of believers.
I go to Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. They have a body of 12 elders, and this is the main way they keep up relationships in the church. At least one of the elders will have a relationship with every member of the church. I want to emphasize at least, because many many times multiple elders will have relationships with someone. I don't mean know, I mean have a relationship. If they're discussing someone and say "Hey, I didn't see Joel in church last week. Where was he?" One of them may pipe up and say "Oh yeah, he told me last week that he was going home to see his family for the weekend." So, the plurality of elders is the main way the church leadership keeps up with the members.
As for the rest of the church, everyone is simply set on making relationships. When the service is over, no one gets up. Really. Virtually no one. Everyone just sits and talks to the person next to them. It's not uncommon to find people 45 minutes after the service still discussing the service.
I think the main thing churches should ask themselves is "Do we build a bigger sanctuary?" or "Do we split?" I know that an example of this is Bethlehem Baptist Church pastored by John Piper which I believe has split a few times.
I think there's no specific number and a church should handle this on a case by case basis. But yes, I do think a church can be too big.
Regarding small groups, I think that splitting them up if they get to be more than 13 people (modeling 12 disciples and Jesus, the teacher) is a great idea. Regarding how to split them up: Praying over, and then casting lots to determine who goes in which group is probably a good idea, which would avoid childishness. One of the apostles was chosen in such a manner after the demise of Judas Iscariot and Jesus Christ's ascension, after all.
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